The Right’s Call To Arms On Health Care
The Democrats have clearly started to push a new front in their push for health care. There new argument is that anyone against Obamacare is fringe, hateful, and even possibly Nazis and racists (according to Nancy Pelosi and Paul Krugman, respectively). I think the townhalls have been very successful in showing the incompetence of Congress in understanding the real issues with health care. What we are seeing is outright ignorance from our elected leaders regarding what is in the bill they are preparing to pass. And rightfully, that is scaring the majority of the American public.
But I think it is time for us to alter our strategy a little bit.
I think it is time to specifically target politicians...and by that, I DON”T MEAN VIOLENTLY (only idiot liberals would take it that way…). I mean that we should make it clear that there are certain lines which, if our political representatives cross, we will unify and raise massive amounts of money in bids to unseat them in the 2010 election.
I believe that we should make clear, that if any of the following are in any bill voted for by any of our representatives, we feel that they have no explanation that would allow us to support them or vote for them in the coming election cycle:
1. The Public Option – It is now clear to most of us that the most liberal members of Congress, along with our President, believe that the public option is ‘the foot in the door’ to universal care. They are being very careful not to come out and say that (excluding the over-honest Barney Frank, of course), but that is their clear intent. To me, this is a nonstarter.
2. Any bill that doesn’t have clear, concise cost controls – This is problematic, but let me argue why we conservatives should unify on this point. If you don’t have clear, concise cost controls, what happens? Ultimately, the budget of the health plan will explode, ala Massachusetts, and rationing by the government will become necessary. Without clear controls, there is a very easily predictable end result: Federal Goverment rationing.
3. No broad based tax increase – The surcharge on wealthy Americans would be disastrous for the economy. They are the ones who largely start hiring late in a recesssion. By taxing them, we will delay future employment, which will cause more pain and suffering universally through our society. That is a nonstarter as well.
4. Any bill WITHOUT Tort reform – I think the public pretty much is unified on this. You cannot pass a health care reform bill without malpractice reform. Period.
5. No special exemptions – We should not allow the Democrats to cut out niches here and there for their constituencies. For example, many of the rules in the House bill? Unions are exempt from following them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If unions don’t like it, they are welcome to join our cause in stopping liberal health care reform.
I think these are pretty broad-based issues that we can achieve consensus on. How much consensus is there? Even people ont he left are questioning many of Obama’s claim. Read liberal icon Camille Paglia on Obama’s promise that you can keep your current health care and physician:
You can keep your doctor; you can keep your insurance, if you’re happy with it, Obama keeps assuring us in soothing, lullaby tones. Oh, really? And what if my doctor is not the one appointed by the new government medical boards for ruling on my access to tests and specialists? And what if my insurance company goes belly up because of undercutting by its government-bankrolled competitor? Face it: Virtually all nationalized health systems, neither nourished nor updated by profit-driven private investment, eventually lead to rationing.
I just don’t get it. Why the insane rush to pass a bill, any bill, in three weeks? And why such an abject failure by the Obama administration to present the issues to the public in a rational, detailed, informational way? The U.S. is gigantic; many of our states are bigger than whole European nations. The bureaucracy required to institute and manage a nationalized health system here would be Byzantine beyond belief and would vampirically absorb whatever savings Obama thinks could be made. And the transition period would be a nightmare of red tape and mammoth screw-ups, which we can ill afford with a faltering economy.
She follows that with real despair at how Democrats have confronted the entire anti-health care reform movement:
And what do Democrats stand for, if they are so ready to defame concerned citizens as the “mob” — a word betraying a Marie Antoinette delusion of superiority to ordinary mortals. I thought my party was populist, attentive to the needs and wishes of those outside the power structure. And as a product of the 1960s, I thought the Democratic party was passionately committed to freedom of thought and speech.
And this is the far left. So clearly their is much angst in the land. If Ms. Paglia feels this way, how do you think moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats, and Independents who seriously considered voting for John McCain but eventually pulled the lever for Barack Obama and moderate Blue Dog Democrats feel?
So, that said, what next?
I believe we should quickly organize groups to raise money to move against any Representative or Senators who ignores these rules. I think those groups should have clear lists, showing those representatives that are willing to meet our demands, and those that don’t. Every politician can do as they see fit…but they should understand that their vote comes with repercussions, and that their vote will be remembered on election day 2010.
We should especially target Moderate Democrats in the House and Senate. Most of these politicians won by slim majorities in 2008…even with Barack Obama’s big victory. With Obama’s falling popularity in the polls, there is a wind draft against Democrats building for 2010. A small shift in independents and conservatives could wash away the Blue Dogs quickly. And it looks like Independents are moving. According to Gallup, Independents by 2-1, 35%-16%, say they are more sympathetic to the protesters now. By 51%-41%, those surveyed say individuals making “angry attacks” on a health care bill reflected “democracy in action” rather than “abuse of democracy.”
It is already working. Moderates willing to compromise on the Republican side are taking a more strident tone. Both Chuck Grassley and Susan Collins, who generally were open to Obamacare, have backed away from certain provisions. Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska has been one of the main targets from liberal groups such as Democracy for America and the Progressive Change Campaign Committee. These groups have used huge ad buys to target Nelson. Well, Nelson wants no part of that, and has gone up with his own ads…basically claiming his independence. “You’ve probably been hearing a lot about health care reform and like too much stuff that comes out of Washington it’s hard to tell what is fact and what is fiction,” Nelson says in the ad, going on to outline his belief that a bill must keep spending down and aid small businesses. “You can count on me to always put Nebraska first,” says Nelson at the ad’s conclusion. Clearly, the revolt has had an effect on Nelson.
There has to be repercussions for Congressmen who vote for a bill that a clear majority of people are against. Any moderate who votes for the public option and delays decisions on cost controls either to some government bureaucrat or some later debate do not deserve any support from middle America, including Republicans, most Independents, and like minded Democrats.
This is democracy at its purest. You want to pass a bill that the majority of Americans are against, so be it. But let the consequences be on your head.
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Here is why Americans are dumb:
You can’t blame people for their own ignorance to things. Yesterday at a town hall meeting, a man named Craig Miller stood up at Arlin Spector’s town hall meeting in Lebanon, PA, and created a scene at the Health Care forum.
Many people 1: do not trust any politicians, 2: do not trust our current (black) President and his Czars that he is forming, 3: are concerned with the direction of our open and transparent government that was officially elected into office in 2008.
One cannot blame these people for their inability to understand the complexity of current social issues in America. We are a nation in transition, and their concerns are naturally going to be left aside in this transition. These people do not want government intervention into their lives (ie. they do not want government to tell them that their taxes are going to be going towards health care for all US citizens). They do not want to sit in at town hall meetings and listen to a government politician tell them that they must conform to this new change in American policy towards health care. They want things to remain the same, and are resistant to change.
You can’t blame people who are uneducated in this society to be able to understand the complexity of the social transition America is going through right now, because they are not social theorists. The average, normal American citizen is uneducated, and the cost of post-high school level education nowadays is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. One must decide whether or not they want to have a family over going to school, as it is impossible to manage both unless one is lucky enough to inherit wealth to be able to manage both. The average citizen struggles to maintain a simple living on minimum wages, they do not have time to improve their education, and therefore remain at the same grade level, and even oftentimes lose their knowledge gained in high school, and are unable to comprehend things that take place in political discourse. Things that take place in political discourse are things that oftentimes rely on social theory and with academic – highly educated people in society. Therefore, we need to enlighten the laypeople in our society as to the nature of the structure of American society, if we want to continue to expect that our system is efficient.
This draws a contrast between the laypeople of society, and the educated people of society. We do not directly pay for public high school education in America, but it comes out of our taxes, so we indirectly pay for it. We come to assume that high school education is free in our society as a result, even though we pay for it with our taxes. People are frightened right now to pay for health care in a similar way, because what we truly have, is many Middle-Class white citizens who do not want to see underprivileged black citizens become healthy (or to avoid becoming sick) at the white people’s tax payer expense.
The problem with this set-up is that it is drawing all of the crazy, fringe elements of society out right now, forming a dichotomous opposition in our society. Crazy right-wing, uneducated people who openly carry loaded guns simply because they can and have licenses to do so, are doing it even at town hall meetings. This is alarming, because all of the sudden we will see KKK groups on the rise, militia groups on the rise, and other crazy fringe elements from society on the rise in order to protect their crazy version of the Constitution.
We should have focused on free public education first, not health care. We need to educate our public, instead of continuing this mentality that leading the confused and uneducated public on complex social problems is the right thing to do. We should have a well-informed citizenry, but many people are uneducated, and therefore are unable to comprehend social complexity in order to argue on behalf of any one issue. As of right now, people do not even know what they want from government, and therefore want things to simply remain the same as they did before the Obama Administration. This natural resistance to change creates the unusual situation we find ourselves in.
Why does free public education stop at high school? We need a system that nurtures free public education, post high school. Why isn’t college and university level education free, like it is in Germany, Denmark, and many other southern Scandinavian countries? The phenomena of paying for things indirectly with tax money, and not directly with money, creates the illusion that we are not paying for it. Out of sight – out of mind.
However, paying for college or university level education is something that I believe should be on the agenda for increasing a better informed citizenry in America – something that is necessary before we discuss issues like National healthcare, because right now, we are basically at a standstill between stupid and ignorant people against academic and highly educated people. This dichotomy is unsustainable, and we MUST focus on educating our society in order to compete in this world, otherwise we will forever remain in the poor economic standings we are currently in.
Daniel,
You are the epitome of arrogance. You think that you are part of the elite intelligentsia who knows what is best for the masses.
I sir am very highly educated. I graduated with Honors in an engineering program back in the 70′s. I am a registered professional engineer in two states having passed a rigorous certification exam.
I could not disagree with you more. It is not the responsibility of society to pay for everyone’s health care nor is it society’s responsibility to provide for those who choose to be part of a permanent underclass. Those who are mentally or physically disabled are the only ones deserving of society’s support.
The racism card does not play anymore. The blatant racism which prevented groups from fully participating in society back in the 50′s and 60′s is over!!! As a matter of fact society bends over backwards to help the poor get jobs and training.
@Daniel
Bullsh*t, people are not the dumb sheep you make them out to be. I see how there can be a race element and I’m sure the fringe groups will gain membership. However, that is not the norm and most people are capable of understanding that universal healthcare is a bad idea! Healthcare reform, maybe a little, but the people of this country are not going to let their incompetent government that can’t even get schools working run the entire healthcare system. Forget about it!
Obama is NOT a socialist at all. His plan will help the middle class and the uninsured by giving you **another option**. He is not planning “National Healthcare for all.” He simply wants the days of insurance companies cherry picking who they will or will not cover to end. He wants to do away with the underwriting that would deny you coverage for pre-existing conditions. He wants to offer a government option. (OPTION) In other words, if you like what you have, keep it. But, if you don’t, an affordable plan is going to be available to you.
Big insurance doesn’t like either of those ideas. They don’t want to cover your healthcare costs if you are already sick. They don’t want a government plan to compete with b/c that means they will have to keep their costs lower and offer better benefits.
They want to keep their stranglehold on the American people. Don’t be fooled by the insurance industry and those marketing for it, Obama is not going to model his plan after Europe. Take the time to REALLY read his proposal. Don’t just believe the commericals that you see on TV. Fight for your rights – you have the right to affordable healthcare!
It’s funny how years ago, when Bush was in office, everyone was so upset about the insurance industry. Now President Obama is trying to fix it and help us out. But, you don’t want it. 10 years from now, if the industry and its followers get their way, you will be crying b/c your in-debt over your head due to paying out of pocket for healthcare costs due to your pre-existing condition. That is not a scare tactic – it is happening right now to everyday middle class Americans.
So again, I urge you to really read Obama’s proposal. It isn’t Europe. It is a hybrid of what we already have, with a government plan to keep costs low. It won’t be free. Even the government plan will not be free. But, it will be affordable. Which right now, if you were to loose your job and your insurance, you would pay out the nose for an individual plan. If you also have a pre-existing condition, then your screwed.
Don’t buy into the insurance industry hype. See if for what it is – a way to funnel your hard earned money into their pockets. Imagine, with the money they have spent on fighting against affordable healthcare, they could have covered some life saving treatments for some of the people they supposedly insure. I guess they are going to have to deny a few extra claims this year. Or maybe just increase the cost of mediciations again.
Daniel. Is the answer is to simply pay for everything everyone wants? True, many people are not well educated but this is a fundamental issue with the schools in general. At what point did you assume the right that the left point of view is the only one and in turn the only correct one.
If other countries have such a better system why are you not there? I wonder how educated you are considering you mention the KKK along with Militias. The trouble with those that believe they are elite is that they are not open to other arguements. I have read plenty that I find alarming in this healthcare and in other bills. Why must I be forced to pay for it?!? What sir is your ‘say so’ anyway?
As for indirect payment: we most certainly do feel the bite of educational expenses. They must be curtailed. The quality of the education no longer merits the costs incurred.
Economics are cyclical in nature. Obviously you know little of this. You will be first to credit Mr Obama no sooner things are well enough either for yourself or the economy to get away with it.
Why do you all keep mentioning he is black? Who cares?!? He is a terrible leader and arrogant to boot but this is why you like him. He and his left friends are also subverting the system.
I can only wish that the last president would have tried this garbage as the media would have, justifiably, crucified hime politically. The free ride is what has to end. So must tenure in schools…
At the end of 2007 my aunt was diagnosed with cancer. Her only income at the time was her social security check. By May of 2008 hers and her husband’s credit cards were maxed out and her savings gone just because her health insurance only covered a portion or her medical treatment expenses. So, like many families in “America”, we all decided to help and pay her medical bills. At that moment I had to question myself, why does she or anyone else living in this country have to go through this financial burden to take care of themselves. Come on, this is the 21st century, America, and isn’t medical care a right every single person paying taxes in a so called democratic country should be entitled of?
One word, MONEY. She died at 78 in September 2008. Lack of information is as bad as wrong information. You can’t blame Americans for their behavior and reacting how they have been. We don’t know any better. The government should explain better what the plan is all about before trying to sell it.
Ricardo from Alexandria, VA
Wake up America. Today we lack detail to really understand the healthcare proposal. I am consistently disappointed in the vast number of people who lose control and go off the page before real facts are presented. Would hesitation be an appropriate response? Of course…but behavior is semmingly a result of slanted media, and stong personal ideals. Hysteria, and inappropriate behavior at these town hall meetings – very sad and in the same breath, these meetings are premature. The cart is before the horse. The prior administration lead through fear. Even ‘ol Bush discussed healthcare reform. He was overly focused on the deceitful war he walked us into and I suspect there is no perfect answer. I can confidently say that the republicans and conservatives feel strongly that they don’t want the healthcare reform to succeed…why else would they not offer any solution? Pay attention. Opposing parties have not verbalized alternative solutions they only drive negative statments and continue to drive fear. Why? Because it works. It’s been used as mind control. They see it succeed through folks such as those at these meetings who lose control. They are about big business and you can trust that your insurance premiums will double if we do nothing…and those in dire need of heathcare including your parents and elder relatives will be in BIG trouble. The only Governor I am aware of who has cut Medicare and Medicaid is Republican, Governor Tim Pawlenty. All I suggest here is that you be careful what you wish for. No reform is equally healthcare suicide.
Interesting debate. If the level of shrill rhetoric on both sides would go down, and the level of rational debate would go up, I’m sure you could solve the problem as we did in Canada many years ago.
I have lived in Canada all my life. We are a democratic, capitalist country with a socialized health-care system. Nobody is denied health care. Health care is not rationed. We do however, prioritize health care. Those with non life-threatening discretionary health-care needs are placed toward the bottom of the queue. Those with life-threatening urgent needs go right to the top of the queue. Those types of decisions are made by doctors, and not HMO bureaucrats focused on the bottom line.
When my mother was very ill a few years ago, she received excellent, comprehensive care. I know the same to be true for others I have known who were very ill. It did not cost any of them anything other than a small monthly premium of about $45, which everybody pays.
We fund the system through taxes, but my tax rate is certainly not outrageous. A similar tax system in the United States would be very affordable, and would be much less than the premiums paid by many individuals and employers now for privatized health-care.
Americans need factual information, not the propaganda of the right or the left.
James, just above, asked why he should be forced to pay for it. I have never been sick a day in my life, but one of these days as I grow older I undoubtedly will need to use the health-care system. Even paying premiums for all those years can be used up in a very short time given the cost of health-care. It is hedge insurance against a catastrophic health-care crisis in your life, James.
Pelosi didnt call anyone a Nazi. Youre a liar like all the right wing whack jobs who would rather face the death panels of all the insurance companies. Pelosi said anyone who yells & screams at these town hall meetings is disruptive and doesnt believe in discussing their opposing argument sensibly, which has always been the American way. It is you that assumes that her statement means that all the screaming over emotional bed wetters at these town hall meetings are really Nazis. Nancy Pelosi called these people Unamerican, it is you that assumes that what that means is that you sheeple are Nazis. Dont look now but you told on yourself. Well if the shoe fits, then goose step in it!
Please NOTE: the Insurance companies hype, as you call it? It is SUPPORTING obamacare…Just remember that.
The anger is largely over the complexity that congress has created in a healthcare industry that would otherwise work well. In the past minor medaling has been tolerated, to help the elderly and the poor but now that there is major medaling and it is time to point out some simple truths.
1. No government can control costs without limiting services. In a natural market people make choices based on the cost and the quality. This naturally creates winners of those who provide the lowest cost quality product, and losers of those who don’t. When the government begins guaranteeing anything within this process, it immediately changes the quality and the efficiency with which it is created. With a guaranteed income a service provider need only meet the minimum service level requirement now to get the fixed reward…
2. It is possible, but extremely complex, to create an artificial market that checks costs and promotes quality. However every government decision over the last 35 years has gone the other direction. It has removed reward from doctors who focus on low cost, it has increased the penalty for doctors who miss anything, and it has distanced patient’s consideration of costs by guaranteeing coverage through insurance.
So before we go creating more ways to inefficiently waste tomorrow’s dollars that our grandchildren will pay with interest, let’s discuss the foundational challenges.
It all seemed so simple, back in the day. My parents worked, received full benefits, yes, including health care, and their was NEVER a problem. No paper work, no HMO’s, PPO’s, no up yours, etc. What ever happened to that simpler, happier, get paid for a hard days work life? GREED! Now, every lobbylist, politican, corporation, company, bank, etc., is power hungry and greedy, blood thirsty money mongers. It’s just that middle america is seeing now, as it is out in the open because the economy has been affected and the greedy isn’t getting it’s cut. They plan on getting it anyway they can, and yes, they will come after our freedom if they have to., or so it seems to me. What is fueling the health plan fire? Very simple, my idiot politicans, especially Nancy Pelosi,we want you and the government, out of our choices of health care which we know would determine our lives and the lives of our children. I know it would be too much to expect for you to care. God will be your judge, not us.
I am confused…wasn’t she covered by Medicare, Ricardo?
Agree. But Reform…not complete makeover.
Um, health care in Canada is rationed, in the sense that care is only available when the government deems it appropriate. Again, I used to practice medicine in Detroit…and many of the heart patients we received were Canadians, who were unwilling to wait 18 months for a coronary bypass.
Now, that doesn’t mean that Canada doesn’t provide excellent care…but it is far from perfect.
Fine. Let people watch the video, and decide for themselves. I command no one, only present information. If you don’t think Pelosi was calling those of us against her healthcare plan Nazis…I urge you never to come back to my site. That is the best way to get back at me.
She said these protesters were carrying swastikas…how exactly are we to take that.
Again, you want to see the video, here it is, in all her glory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaC-uMzvKKM
I disagree a little bit, Mr. Clayton. The anger is also about losing control over one’s life, in a sense. Americans are different than Canadians and Europeans. We value our individual freedoms a little more. For example, Europeans seem more willing to have more security protections that intrude (e.g. London’s massive surveillance program) than Americans would accept.
I agree that govt can only control costs by rationing. That has been my argument all along. That said, individuals control costs all the time. They do it by their pocketbook. That is why we need basic universal care in this country, but everything else should have more patient involvement in paying for costs.
The problem is that back in that day…we didn’t demand as much from the health care system. Now, we demand too much. That is what it comes to…we ask too much of a health care system that can’t afford it.
James
The only true profiteers in healthcare today are drug manufacturers and medical suppliers. Doctors and patients care little about costs because government has broken their incentive to out of fear they will deny some potentially lifesaving treatment. But in the end the GOVERNMENT has broken the very nature of what creates quality and low cost. In its absense a drug manufacturer now only needs convince a doctor to perscribe their extreamly expensive drug, even though it provides only marginal difference, yet the cost is 500 times the generic. Why do you think the drug manufacturers are all over washington, and why do you think they do not care what OBAMA is doing. It is their gravy train, they just want to be sure someone is paying for it.
Fixing the healthcare industry is simple – unwind past government blunders
1. Repeal Stark and Anti-kickback legislation that denies doctor ownership in most healthcare entities
2. Create a doctor patient accountability pact. When the doctor lives up to reasonable accountability, they should be immune to frivolous lawsuits. When a patient does not, an insurance company should be allowed to factor that into insurance premiums.
3. Promote CMS (Medicares) significant effort to capture quality data and establishe definitions of quality service across 100 of diagnosis categories. Push this detail out to the public. Make hospitals display their quality factors on the front door. They will push to become to the best.
4. Finally get rid of hundreds of expensive drugs and costly medical devices that do little to improve care or quality outcome. Mandate through FDA approval that drugs and medical devices prove their value contribution to justify their price. If they can’t deny the product, or create a non-endorced category of products where individuals can choose to pay higher amounts for non justified goods.
My health care plan:
1. I bought a Cannondale road bike (made in the good ol’ U.S. of A.)
2. I ride it at least five to six times a week.
3. I eat healthy now (Lance Armstrong’s diet).
4. I can now ride 20 – 25 miles a day at two to three hours a time.
My basic (“arrogant”) premise is this – reflect on what you can do to change the health care system in America for you, instead of what you expect your government to do for you. Ultimately it seems ‘Concserve56′ ‘Chris’ and ‘James’ lean towards expecting the government to be their answer to everything in their lives, and they are worried that having a fundamental societal and structural change is somehow a bad thing for the U.S. at this point. With this, I also ultimately disagree.
As far as ‘Conserve56′ claim that he is well-educated: I wouldn’t be proud of the fact that he said his last course of study was in enginnering in the 70′s, which is in no way connected to social theory, anthropology, nor sociology. Times have changed since then sir… update your bibliography. If you want to truly understand social and societal issues, read Peter Berger’s “Praise of Doubt”, or Pierre Bourdieu’s “Logic of Pracitce” – then get back to me.
These shams of “town hall meetings” remind me of the windup to the civil rights movement – as I watched grown men and women spit on children, fight in the street, call filthy names, and yes, string some people up. As some of these radical people scream about taking away their freedom over health care, they are denying others the right to their freedom to speak out. But I guess that’s different – for them anyway. I’m ashamed of this America right now – for allowing a few undereducated people to take over the process, for the others that stay quiet and let it happen, and for the “baron robbers” we have in our midst that still prey on people’s fears with their lies and innuendos. Shame on all of us.
If we were fighting over the wars we are in, or the torture issue, or the bribes some Congressmen are taking, or the concealed weapons that we feel we need to carry, it might make sense. But over health care for all???? God help us if we ever had another Pearl Harbor.
One relevant societal trend.
WWII happens, men see friends blown away, and in the end find new appreciation for life. All they want is a family and piece. The 1950 reflect that family focus. Children raised in this environment, want excitement and feel they have to rebel against everything. The 1960′s are impacted by cultural progress, but an undercurrent of amorality infect society. The 1970′s-1998 see the largest economic expansion in US hisotry. Past wants become needs of today. The 60′s boomers promote amorality and flawnt progress as their doing. Children of this era lose touch with reality. The 1990-2007 see unrealistic expansion of the economy based on debt and fake reality. So today we are left being led by Boomers, who believe in amorality and rebelion adn who lead followers who don’t know how America became wealthly, only that they have a right to all of it.
Ingredients that brood social unrest and turmoil for then next 30 year!!!
“If you are young and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you are old and not a conservative, you have no brain.”
–Winston Churchill
“The difference between a liberal and a conservative is 20 years.”
–Mark Twain
With that said i can say the folks that are managing social security and medicad in to a death spiral should stay away from me.
So Nancy Pelosi said that “these protesters were carrying swastikas”? How you should take it sir is that she was speaking about a certain group of protesters not ALL protesters who believe FIXed NEWS drivel. No more no less. If this opposing view in some way enrages you into not wanting me to comment on your site then you are of the same mind of the gullible mob of angry people that visit these town hall meetings. Perhaps you should view the sheeple in the video you attached to your post and see the intelligencia that you empathize with. By the way i didnt see any black people in there, I cant imagine why, can you? They must be scared of all the imaginary swastikas you were talking about.
Why the rush? Healthcare reform is needed but why is the President and Congress in such a rush to get it done in a few weeks? I would think that something as complex and expensive as healthcare reform would need to be crafted over several months not just a few days.
Do reasonable people respond well to “Hurry, hurry….sign this….give me your money and I’ll tell you the details later.”?
“Why the rush for healthcare” (?)
Because it is a corrupt system designed to keep destitute people impoverished. It is a disease care system, not a system of prevention. The outragious amounts of money that get cyphened from our uninsured pockets for the costs associated with healthcare in this country are precisely why we Americans can never get ahead in our lives. Credit agencies actually come after people for not being able to pay their emergency debts now. The ladder of upward social mobility is missing a few rungs on it as a result. The division of social classes is becoming more and more apparent. Read Karl Marx and Friedrich Engel’s “Communist Manifesto” for a startling reality of this phenomenon.
Will this republic the United States of America make it to the year 2076 anniversary of 300 years of independence from the English government. I wonder how the history books of the future will look back on this nation. Is America transitioning from a republic form of less government or to democratic form of more government. I wonder what our country will be called in the future: Socialist States of America or ….. never mind I guess our future generations will have to decide. Like all great republics from histories past they usually don’t survive. Can America survive… Will we forget or loss sight on what this country was founded and what makes this country the greatest in the world. Or will it be said in the history books that look back and say “America: last of the great republics”.
I think everyone needs to calm down and take a deep breathe. Right now things are very scary. I believe that the Republican party as well as Astroturf and some other lobbyist groups are responsible for igniting the fire. I don’t put anything past those spineless gutter snipes. (Republicans) But since they started the fire, other people are now coming out. It is so obvious after watching the looks on SOME if not MOST of those people’s faces that it is more than just healthcare that has their panties in a bunch. I think there is an element in this country that cannot and will not accept the fact that Obama is president. I think what is happening right now is very sad–:( I thought the country as a whole was past most of the racist arguments. I guess I was being naive. I will continue to support our President 110% because he is a good man and has the best of intentions for this country. I wish that more the population could see that.
It is sad that our President feels it is necessary to keep half the country out of the discussion…as his party did when the health care bill was written. Again, I feel that much of the anger is really Obama and Democrats fault for rushing this bill, and not allowing more political debate on it in Congress.
There was no “rushing” with this bill. It has largely been formed and conceptualized by Ted Kennedy, who has been working on it for over 30 years now. We simply re-opened the bill and saw now as a better time than never to try to pass it again. So there is no “rushing” about this bill. People who claim that it is being “rushed” are simply denying this fact, and believe it is something that was made up a couple of weeks ago.
It seems however, those people who are simply resistant to change in any way shape or form want this current bill to be stalled again, bringing it to a halt, or stopped all together. I don’t know about any of you, but I am sick (pun intended) to death about why our country pays more money into the system and receives very little in return. This must finally come to an end by voting this healthcare plan into legislation.
It’s interesting that when Conservatives express dissent, they are
“Right Wing Mobs”, “Extremists” and “Astroturfers”.
But, when the left is disruptive, and even pays protestors to be there,
it is somehow a noble ideal which drives THEM.
Daniel,
It’s not the development of the bill that is being rushed,
it’s the discussion and analysis of the bill which is being
not just rushed, but deliberately supressed.
Laurie, what in the world? Almost in one breath your say calm down and then call Republicans “spineless gutter snipes?” Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?
The fact is that there are many people with legitimate concerns about this bill, but they are being marginalized by people who try to categorize them as right-wing crazies, Nazis, people organized by Fox News, whatever. The people who have spoken out and are angry are not all Republicans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cr1WXU9oU4
I can’t understand how people can blindly support a program run by the same government who brought you Medicare. I can’t believe supporters of this bill can blindly ignore the downsides of this bill because they feel it’s necessary. Does the thought of China having complete control over our economy not bother you? Can you not see that once a cheap public option is available (paid for by the taxpayers) that it will put insurance companies out of business and subsequently limit our choices for insurance and will lead towards a single-payer system? I read the comments of the Canadian above apologizing for the lack of available healthcare in their system for “healthy” people – and yet the supporters of the bill want to bring our system down to that level? Preventative medicine will be rationed out and eventually eliminated when the government can no longer afford it when China requires we pay back all the money we owe them.
We have the best healthcare system in the world – it doesn’t need an overhaul. It needs to be tweaked to cut costs to make it more affordable – tort reform is a fantastic first step. Can healthcare be provided to those who can’t afford it? Sure – with strict limitations on income level. You could pay the premiums for 40 million people over 10 years for roughly $500 billion – significantly less than the cost of this current bill, but that’s an extreme example.
I’ll give you an idea: why not have a privately-run regulated healthcare plan (can be provided by multiple insurers) which the low-income families can enroll in and take a full tax credit for the premiums? Insurers would be clamoring for their business and it would probably cost significantly less than the existing so-called “plan”. The people who benefit are the ones who get the insurance, so there wouldn’t be any mandates.
BTW, did you notice the people who are “attacking” at the town hall meetings are attacking policies, but the people who are opposing them are attacking the people personally? When you can’t defend your position with facts, you attack with personal attacks.
Think about it.
You commented to Ricardo–the gentleman whose aunt had cancer, but no coverage– “Wasn’t she covered by Medicare?” Let me tell you what coverage under Medicare amounts to. After spending two weeks in the hospital battling pneumonia, my grandmother was completely covered by Medicare. After the Medicare paid their share, she was left with a bill for $86,000. Maybe that’s your idea of coverage. It does not work for me, or most Americans. While you’re screaming, remember, medical expenses are the number one reason for bankruptcy for America’s middle and working classse. Reform is needed to change that. Costs are out of control and coverage, such as it is, is a joke for many.
As for the other argument, it does not matter what Pelosi said. What’s obvious is what these bigots on the right do. Questioning Obama’s citizenship, showing up at protests holding stuffed monkeys, painting swastika’s on walls–this stuff has nothing to do with healthcare. Neither do the threats of violence. This is something we have seen in this country for 200 years. When right wing white men do not feel that they have complete control over every group in this country (and even other countries for that matter)–women, children, people of other races–they become violent. It’s a long-established part of American history. It was their reaction to voting rights, civil rights, feminism, child labor laws, Native American land rights, etc. Vicious, angry mobs of white men threatening anyone who won’t bow to them are, unfortuntaly, just a sad, familiar part of the American landscape. As long as there’s a black family in the white house, the nastiness will continue, whether it’s about health care or some other issue, and you know it.
Um, maybe my sarcasm didn’t come through. I am a doctor…I know the holes in Medicare. Look, Obama and Democrats continually point to Medicare as the ideal…it simply is not. You and Ricardo have pointed out exactly some of the problems. In some cases, Medicare is worse than private insurance. And understand…Obama is going to DECREASE FUNDING OF MEDICARE. That DOESN”T necessarily mean he will cut benefits, but he has yet to clearly explain how he will cut funding and not cut benefits.
I have NEVER questioned Obama’s citizenship; I have never supported any racist idiot that does any things. And it does matter what Ms. Pelosi says…she is the third most powerful politician in this country. Her voices counts hundreds or thousands of times more than any single protester.
And where so far have you seen actual violence in this debate? From unions and the left. I reiterate: 6 people were arrested last Thursday at a townhall in St. Louis…all were Obama supporters. Violence has primarily been on the left in this case.
People are asking legitimate questions of their leaders, including Obama. Are there racists out there? Sure. But Obama and our leaders still have a duty to all of us to answer our questions, regardless of what a fringe portion of people are doing. And the majority of people in this country agree, as Obama’s approval falls below 50%.
I think of Obama’s plan and I think of this image: http://is.gd/2dYxi
Reminds me of Dexter…
Daniel,
“People are frightened right now to pay for health care in a similar way, because what we truly have, is many Middle-Class white citizens who do not want to see underprivileged black citizens become healthy (or to avoid becoming sick) at the white people’s tax payer expense.”
Are you trying to say that underprivileged black citizens cannot get healthy unless they have affordable health care? Whatever happened to exercise and eating less?
In the United States, 70% of the money spent on health care is considered “lifestyle” care, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. This is care that is required due to the effects of specific lifestyle choices (smoking, poor diet and exercise/obesity, cosmetic surgery are 3 examples). The remaining 30% is spent on preventative medicine, which is essentially “inevitable” care. When studying this statistic, there appears to be an obvious solution – minimize the amount spent on lifestyle care.
Most Western European nations have this issue solved; in fact, it has never really been an issue, from what I can tell. While there are a number of Western European residents who drink and smoke regularly, there is one thing that remains constant – they are in good physical shape, generally speaking. Switzerland, for example, is a country that remains highly reliant on walking, bicycle riding, and public means of transportation (only in the past 10-15 years have personal vehicles become much more popular). They also offer very few fried food options locally, and they typically eat smaller, well-balanced meals. The citizens live longer, healthier lives because they take care of themselves, and they live in a much more care-free environment (less emphasis on profits and pure capitalism). In turn, health care costs are significantly lower because these residents are in better health to begin with.
On the flip side, there are very few cities in the United States that require residents to be in good physical shape. Essentially everyone owns an automobile, because it is required to get from point A to point B. Generally speaking, we don’t ride our bikes to work, nor do we walk to work. We don’t even walk to the bus stop or walk up/down the stairs. We tend to eat more. We eat more fried, high-carb, high-fat foods. Many people choose not to eat balanced meals regularly. We are the epitome of the term gluttony. That being said, our lifestyles are a major reason why universal health care seems so unreasonable in this country. Yes, there are multiple factors that effect skyrocketing health care costs in the US, but none have more of an effect than our own personal health choices.
Just some food for thought (no pun intended), but maybe the solution to the problem is getting everyone in better physical shape, but that’s a lot easier said than done. Want to make a difference? Try climbing the stairs instead of riding the elevator tomorrow.
Mark –
Barack Obama used healthcare reform as a basis for his campaign platform beginning in 2007. If the time frame from 2007 to now constitutes “rushing” healthcare through, and to you somehow evading discussion, then I’m sorry to say it – but you are probably a little bit slow.
@neoavatara – it’s the big happy smile
Daniel,
When was the actual BILL given to congress to review.
Before that, it was all conjecture and heresay.
Once the BILL is presented, that is when the clock starts,
NOT BEFORE!
Debating healthcare in the past is not the same as debating
the healthcare BILL. We are now at SPECIFICS, not the prior
meaningless generalizations.
But I guess I’m slow… so we need more time for us slow people.
Sorry, but Obama STILL hasn’t provided a bill for us to look at. The only bill that has been offered came this year through Congress, and has been rushed.
Daniel: you’re coming off (whether you realize it or not) as a pompous elitist. Many of your points are well taken but the premise of almost all your remarks somehow appears to be that government should intercede in our personal choices. Let insurance companies charge more for people that smoke or are overweight. Another company who wants my business will charge less if I smoke and I’ll go to them. I’ve lived long enough to have pissed on the graves of many “health nuts” that did everything right at the time certain beliefs were in place. Is it healthy to do deep knee bends to the point you blow out your knees? It was when I was an athlete. Are eggs good or bad for you right now? I think eggs are good right now after being bad, then good, then bad, then good, then bad. My kids had life-threatening illnesses and had done nothing bad healthwise… they just got sick. Where’s the tort reform? The single-most cause of high costs for everything and to everybody as it relates to anything medical and it’s not even addressed? The only roll that government should take in this struggle is the same as the FDA. Oversight, and action when called upon to intercede. Ted Kennedy is my senator and I can tell you that he is a typical elitist. He “feels the pain” of many and fights for them by way of imposing legislation on the average people so that it can alleviate the guilt he feels from being rich and privelaged. He still lives in several mansions, fought windmills that would have obstructed his view, and has lived above the law compared to normal people. One problem he has, like most in Congress, is that they don’t understand that most of us don’t have an endless supply of money to give them to feed their need to make THEM feel better with all these “feel good” policies and laws. If you want a law to make smoking illegal then… “poof” it is now illegal for YOU to smoke. You can pay more taxes if you want to help others with their medical bills, just check off a box on your tax return and give them more money. If you want government controlled “Obama-care” then “poof”, you buy it and let the rest of us alone.
Obama talks about how much Americans spend on healthcare
under the current (private) system.
He never mentions where that money will come from, and why it
would take less money for healthcare if the government were to run it.
There would be more waste, and we would all pay for the increased waste.
Eventually we would pay more for healthcare, but the costs would be
hidden and added to our taxes.
And eventually, the costs would become high enough, and the resources
would become so lacking, that rationing would occur.
There is no way that the government (or anyone) can provide free healthcare
on demand. People will only get NECESSARY healthcare, and who do you think
will decide what is necessary?
What I have seen of the U.S. health-care “debate” on television has been appalling. These town hall meetings have been full of folks that were not interested in any sort of debate, but in simply shouting down whoever they happen to disagree with.
Add to that the completely mindless slogans comparing their leftist opponents to Nazis and socialists, and I can only conclude that these people don’t care about health-care reform. They are Republicans who don’t want to debate the issue but just want to mindlessly oppose anything a Democratic administration might advocate
Doesn’t the right understand that this approach further undermines any credibility that the Republican right has left, and whose credibility is already at rock bottom?
Daniel:
Already, you begin by insulting the American people. Your arguments will win few supporters that way. And while I would enjoy flaying you for your rank arrogance and condescension, I’ll stick to flaying your arguments instead.
One cannot blame these people for their inability to understand the complexity of current social issues in America. We are a nation in transition, and their concerns are naturally going to be left aside in this transition. These people do not want government intervention into their lives (ie. they do not want government to tell them that their taxes are going to be going towards health care for all US citizens). They do not want to sit in at town hall meetings and listen to a government politician tell them that they must conform to this new change in American policy towards health care. They want things to remain the same, and are resistant to change.
The People understand perfectly well what is going on. Which brings me to your first false premise, that the current situation is “complex”. This is the same tired, faulty argument used since Wilson first conjured up the modern American bureaucracy, because it then follows that only a special cadre of “experts” is qualified to understand and respond to the complexity, and that the rest of us uneducated yokels should just sit back and take it. Life is complex because you make it complex; it becomes its own self-fulfilling prophecy. Second, what transition are you referring to? A transition to a socialist state, where the people are serfs to the state master? A transition where liberty is lost? This is not a transition to be blithely accepted, but fought against to the last breath. Statists seem utterly unwilling to learn the lessons of history, or even hear the warning cries of our contemporaries. I attribute this to either blatant ignorance or willful malice, and I suspect the later. Of course these people don’t want government intervention in their lives and health care; the Constitution gives it no power to do so.
You can’t blame people who are uneducated in this society to be able to understand the complexity of the social transition America is going through right now, because they are not social theorists.
One does not have to be a “social theorist” to understand the importance of family, and self-reliance, and the civil society. I don’t recall Jefferson or Madison or Adams having degrees in sociology.
The average, normal American citizen is uneducated, and the cost of post-high school level education nowadays is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Wrong, and wrong. As of 2005, 53% of Americans have some post-secondary education, and the cost of four years at the University of Texas (a highly regarded public university) is around $50,000, certainly not the “hundreds of thousands” you claim.
One must decide whether or not they want to have a family over going to school, as it is impossible to manage both unless one is lucky enough to inherit wealth to be able to manage both. The average citizen struggles to maintain a simple living on minimum wages, they do not have time to improve their education, and therefore remain at the same grade level, and even oftentimes lose their knowledge gained in high school, and are unable to comprehend things that take place in political discourse.
Again, wrong, wrong, and completely wrong. I managed having a family and going to school, all without ‘wealth’, perfectly fine. It requires hard work, discipline, and sacrifice, something the Left seems unfamiliar with anymore. The median household income in America is $50,233, not the $14,500 (full time minimum wage) you claim. Time is what you make of it; you can watch American Idol, or improve yourself. It’s your choice. As for the “loss of knowledge”, that statement is patently absurd, because the logical end result would be a nation of old, drooling imbeciles, and the elderly attending these town hall meeting with legitmate arguments against ObamaCare seem fully in control of their faculties. They understand perfectly what is going on.
Things that take place in political discourse are things that oftentimes rely on social theory and with academic – highly educated people in society. Therefore, we need to enlighten the laypeople in our society as to the nature of the structure of American society, if we want to continue to expect that our system is fficient.
Cite, if you can. It’s interesting your use of the word ‘laypeople’, as it reveals more of your haughty, arrogant opinions about Americans that you realize. For you, the State is The Religion, and the “educated” Left is its priesthood, and the rest of us ‘laity’ need ‘enlightenment’ about whatever socialist opinion the priesthood deems accurate. ‘Efficiency’ is a ruse, the same tired argument used since Wilson first created the modern American bureaucracy. “Government that works!” is the battle cry. No! I want government that does nothing, other than protect our liberty and property
This draws a contrast between the laypeople of society, and the educated people of society. We do not directly pay for public high school education in America, but it comes out of our taxes, so we indirectly pay for it. We come to assume that high school education is free in our society as a result, even though we pay for it with our taxes. People are frightened right now to pay for health care in a similar way, because what we truly have, is many Middle-Class white citizens who do not want to see underprivileged black citizens become healthy (or to avoid becoming sick) at the white people’s tax payer expense.
No one who pays school taxes thinks public education is ‘free’. I know exactly where my property taxes go. Your premise is false, that we should pay for health care with taxes simply because we pay for public education with taxes. There is another, deeper, false premise, that any service should be paid for with taxes. That is all education, or health care, really is, goods and service provided by trained individuals. Furthermore, I can dig up plenty of ‘educated’ works showing free markets vastly outperform government provided education and health-care, the famous and now-defunct DC vouchers being an excellent example. Look at that, and tell me how the Left is for the poor and minorities again? Don’t play race card; it doesn’t work anymore.
The problem with this set-up is that it is drawing all of the crazy, fringe elements of society out right now, forming a dichotomous opposition in our society. Crazy right-wing, uneducated people who openly carry loaded guns simply because they can and have licenses to do so, are doing it even at town hall meetings. This is alarming, because all of the sudden we will see KKK groups on the rise, militia groups on the rise, and other crazy fringe elements from society on the rise in order to protect their crazy version of the Constitution.
Again, attcking people and not their arguments is the path to failure. What does the 2nd Amendment have to do with this? Every CCL holder I’ve known is very intelligent and educated. They simply are working to preserve Liberty. The rest of your statement is nothing but fear-mongering speculation, but I will say there is only ONE ‘version’ of the Constitution, the one written and ratified in 1789-1791. Its author, James Madison, stated specifically “The legitimate meaning of the Instrument must be derived from the text itself; or if a key is to be sought elsewhere, it must be not in the opinions or intentions of the Body which planned & proposed the Constitution, but in the sense attached to it by the people in their respective State Conventions where it recd. all the Authority which it possesses.” The Constitution is not some ‘living document’ as you would apparently have it by your statement, but a legal document with specific meaning determined at the TIME IT WAS RATIFIED.
We should have focused on free public education first, not health care. We need to educate our public, instead of continuing this mentality that leading the confused and uneducated public on complex social problems is the right thing to do. We should have a well-informed citizenry, but many people are uneducated, and therefore are unable to comprehend social complexity in order to argue on behalf of any one issue. As of right now, people do not even know what they want from government, and therefore want things to simply remain the same as they did before the Obama Administration. This natural resistance to change creates the unusual situation we find ourselves in.
It is apparent that by ‘educate’, you mean make people understand that socialism is preferable and we should willingly give up our liberty for some ill-defined social good. People want nothing from government, other than to leave the people alone. You keep arguing that the citizens are uninformed, uneducated, and unable to ‘comprehend’ social complexity (which I have argued previous, simply does not exist), and thus unable argue on any one issue. This does not square with facts or history, and the past weeks show that Americans are informed and educated; they just don’t agree with you.
Why does free public education stop at high school? We need a system that nurtures free public education, post high school. Why isn’t college and university level education free, like it is in Germany, Denmark, and many other southern Scandinavian countries? The phenomena of paying for things indirectly with tax money, and not directly with money, creates the illusion that we are not paying for it. Out of sight – out of mind.
Why? Is this another fabricated “right” that needs tax payer support? Once again, it seems you equate education with acceptance of the socialist agenda. The rest of your statement makes no sense. The people who pay the tax know it isn’t free. Only those benefit from the service without paying for it suffer that delusion.
However, paying for college or university level education is something that I believe should be on the agenda for increasing a better informed citizenry in America – something that is necessary before we discuss issues like National healthcare, because right now, we are basically at a standstill between stupid and ignorant people against academic and highly educated people. This dichotomy is unsustainable, and we MUST focus on educating our society in order to compete in this world, otherwise we will forever remain in the poor economic standings we are currently in.
Again, why? You make no make no case for it, except to insult those who don’t agree with you as stupid and ignorant. And, what poor economic standings do you refer to? Despite the recession, America still has the highest GPD by far, and is in the top 4 countries in the world in per capita income in terms of purchasing power parity. America is the only country in the world I know of where the poor have cell phones.
If you want a truly educated, informed citizenry, teach the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and Common Sense. Teach Liberty.
The argument is not “reform or no reform”.
Reform is needed, but a complete takeover of the American Healthcare system by the government is not the answer. Instead let us focus on what is broken and fix that component.
We are not perfect, but I truly believe in my heart that we are a great nation…the greatest in the world. Simply take a look at the census data to find that the US ranks #1 in immigration to the nation as well as #1 in the fewest citizens leaving the nation. That says something about this great nation we live in.
My parents and grandparents came here from Cuba 48 yrs ago and believe this is the greatest nation in the world…a nation of free choices, freedom of speech, capitalism and free enterprise.
Yet lately we seem to be moving further away from these principals that make our country different from the rest. Let us not completely rid ourselves of the principals our forefathers founded this nation upon. Let us not limit our choices.
Since when can we trust our government to do anything correctly?? (No matter what Party is in control)
Let’s make the US a better country, not a different country, because a complete transformation of the US as we know it can be the biggest mistake of our lives.
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